New Boat wanted, what kind ?

[DennisC]

HI Folks,
So what is your collective wisdom?
I'm looking for a new boat, Cruising in and around the Gulf Islands and San Juans. Approx 30 - 35 feet. What is your opinion of the best bang for the buck. I'm looking for something under $50,000.

Any comments or sugestions
Dennis C
..._/)*...

[nwsail]

Here are my thoughts based on quite limited information and experience.

Cruising in and around the Gulf Islands and San Juans. Approx 30 - 35 feet

Let's assume that your main use will be fairly short (less than two week) trips and that you will usually have two people on board.

This would mean that you (or at least me) would proboably want as much interior space as possible. liveable interior space and storage space are a trade off.
Let's also assume that you want the most boat for the best price (just like everyone does). I guess what I mean by that is you would be willing to trade size for durability. This won't be a blue water cruiser.

Some of the most successful boats are Catalina and Hunter. Both have large inerior cabins, neither has a reputation as a strong ocean going boat, and the values seem to be in the price range you are thinking about.

A mid 80's version of either boat can be had for less than $50k. I have seen Catalina 34s and Hunter 35s in that price range.

I have also had some experience with the Newport 30. The layout is nice and they are pleasant to sail. The price for these in very good condition is quite a bit less than your target price as well.

I sailed a Pearson 36 for a while a few years ago. From what I remember, the layout was great and it was comfortable to sail. A 36 would probably be more than your budget, but a 33 might work.

All in all, the choice seems to be very subjective to me. I would look for a well equipped boat with good electronics.

Alternately, I would lower my target price for the boat to say $35k or $40k and spend the rest on good electronics (like radar) and equipping the boat to be safe and comfortable.

I don't know if that is much help. Just a few of my thoughts.

[Gordon]

I have only had 3 trips into the Gulf and San Juan islands, but I go for a month at a time. Some of my thoughts are,

Showers are expensive up there, pay attention to how water is heated. Running the engine in a quiet anchorage to heat water will not make friends.

Look, most sailboats move around up there under power. I'm sorry, but they do. Bucking strong currents, and the short hops between some of the destinations often make sailing impractical. Get a powerful engine.

How many people onboard? The capacity of fresh water and the holding tanks need to be considered. Some punpouts are few and far between.

Radar, yes. Notice how many boats have it!

Dodger, yes. Unless you can get someone else to go out and steer.

Would be nice to know what you have now, or have experience with. Running low on space, good luck

[Chuck Gould]

Brand new, or just new to you?

Power or sail?

[strongsail]

Um, this thread is in a sailing forum - -

[Chuck Gould]

Quoth the sailor: "Um, this thread is in a sailing forum?"

Maybe I have a navigation problem. I find the thread under a list headed
"latest discussions"

Nothing indicates that the thread or the forum is strictly for sail.

Am I getting into the thread from an awkward angle?

Is there another avenue, rather than "latest discussions"?

Or:is the whole blooming "Northwest Boating Network" supposed to be sail only? If so, the title should be changed. It may come as one helluva shock to a certain arrogant minority among sailors, but "boating" encompasses a wide number of disciplines. And arrogant would be the definitive word for anybody who presumes that only their own chosen preference truly qualifies as boating.

Bill the gig as a "boating forum" and I won't be the only powerboater to stumble in here. Maybe that's the point? Have a few around to belittle and post down to because they can't figure out that "boating" really only means "sailing."

Some of the best (and some of the worst) boaters I know are sailors.

Anyway, if the entire site is supposed to be "sail only," I apologize for the intrusion and will unsubscribe. We stinkpotters are less welcome by most sailors than Professor Amaze-o's Performing Flea Circus would be
welcome at an AKC French Poodle show.

If this site is supposed to be for both power and sail and I accidentally wound up in some area reserved for sailors by following the "latest discussion" link, maybe the website organizers might want to fix that.

Sorry to have offended your thread with my presence.


Fair winds, etc. :-)

[DennisC]

HI folks,

Heh Chuck, It's OK, everyone is welcome. You may have over-reacted a tad. I don't believe there was any deragatory intent in the quip sent by strongsail. Sure it may have been a "thread" under a "sailboat' classification, but like yourself, I saw it as a "General" discussion section.

Perhaps this is a good example of the complications of the various forums. Perhaps fewer or even only one discussion section is required.

Re the powerboat/sailboat thing, I admit as a sailor I USED to be dead set against powerboats. I had to eat crow on two specific occasions myself, (and I have witnessed numerous others) where if it were not for the POWER of power boaters my sailboat would still be stuck on that dammed rock! I've also shared anchorages and cocktails etc with some of teh nicest people I've met , who just happen to have a powerboat, and had some really bad experiences with folks on a sailboat. We are all one big happy family, sure the various types of boats tend to do their own thing and perhaps a few of those things are in conflict. As Chuck pointed out, there are good and bad boaters, both power and sail. Sailors are just jealous because the power boats get further faster !

Don't go away Chuck

So.... Where are you headed for July 4 th?

Cheers
DennisC
..._/)*...

[strongsail]

Hey Chuck, no offense, you're right, when you look at the newest posts on the homepage, you don't know what forums they're from. Maybe that can be changed...

(Hello Rusty?)

When you select a new post, its entire thread will load, and you can scroll back to the top and see what forum it's in.

And, as far as I'm concerned, this has GOT to be a forum for ALL boaters or it won't survive. As fanatical as sailors tend to be about "their" sport, they are a small minority of the boating community.

I am a sailor and have been since age 11, but have owned numerous powerboats as well. I think we all go boating for the same reasons - to be close to the water, and to go places that we can't get to any other way. Even when we're not headed for a destination, sailors will go race around the buoys and powerboaters will go waterskiing or wakeboarding.

It's all FUN !!

And that's what I hope this site stresses - the fun of the sport, pastime, obsession, whatever it is to you.

We don't have to argue over which is better, or more fun, or any of that. We all have varying levels of experience and expertise, and we can use this site to ask questions and to answer them. We don't need to talk down to one another.

So again, no offense meant over my cryptic little reply, Chuck. Your feedback and participation are appreciated! And they will be in the future too - if you keep coming back!

My friends and associates often tell me I'm too abrupt. They're right. I tell 'em, Tough. Get over it. I am a marine surveyor for an insurance company, so SAFETY is number one to me. If I read a posting here that needs response on that issue, I will jump in with both big feet and will probably p*ss people off from time to time. Well...Tough. Get over it. If this site is gonna end up with a resident curmudgeon, it might as well be me.

I'm actually quite cuddly and lovable once you get to know me...

[strongsail]

So DennisC, you sail an Aloha 27, what would you have to pay in C$ to move up to an Aloha 32? I notice on your owner's club website that the 32 is designed by Mark Ellis.

I have always admired Mark Ellis' designs - in case some folks aren't familiar with him, he designed the Nonsuch catboats for Hinterhoeller, and also the Niagaras - the Niagara 35 is a particular favorite of mine, since it closely resembles my boat, the Victoria 34 designed by Chuck Paine.

I have not surveyed an Aloha - there are not many of 'em in the US, and it's the same with the Mirages - I have a close friend in Nanaimo who sails a Mirage 27 - so I don't know about the construction and systems quality of Alohas.

I have lots of ideas, and as you can imagine, prejudices about/against lots of designs and builders - but as a surveyor I am supposed to be un-biased (hah!) and will refrain from making recommendations - but tell me what interests you in that size and price range and I will (gently) (hah!) respond...

[Gordon]

:D When a sailboat is under power, it then becomes a powerboat. Must I change forums when I start my outboard?


Anyone going to the Wooden Boat Show in Port Townsed in Sept.?

[strongsail]

Good point Gordon, in the light winds of summer we all end up powerboats if we wanna get anywhere!

Are you a wooden boat owner?

[DennisC]

HI Folks,

Enough of the sail/power thing , yes lets return to the topic, BUT lets also put in a vote to re-arrange the topics, I for one vote for a VERY few topics, maybe even just one open discussion forum, But that's just me.

On the topic of what kind of boat, I have to admit, I love my Aloha 28 , and I have no desire to change. I was attempting to start a lively discussion about boats, alas it went on to something else.

Fairwinds
DennisC ..._/)*...

[strongsail]

DennisC, I posted a reply in the "What can we do...?" thread...

[Gordon]

Originally posted by strongsail
Good point Gordon, in the light winds of summer we all end up powerboats if we wanna get anywhere!

Are you a wooden boat owner?



No, I own a fiberglass boat, I've had it so long that it is almost wood!

I wish I had the paitence, time, ability, and money to own a wooden boat, They are "Real" boats, not almost trailers like some of the current crop.

We trailer up to the show about every other year then spend the rest of September supporting the local economy.

[Steve P]

Yeah I've got a sailboat that turned motorsailor once we got it into the Sound. It's the upwind/downwind that kills me. If I could beam reach everywhere it'd be better.

For PNW sailing you'd better look for something that sails upwind well if you don't want to end up like me.

Powerboats seem more expensive for what you get, but a small one with a cabin would be an ideal cruising boat for this area.

With a budget of $50k you'll be limited in your choices, but there are still plenty. Things like Catalina and Hunter sail well are comfortable and in your price range. They are also plenty tough enough to handle whatever you'll get into around here. Get one with a full dodger/bimini cockpit cover, and heat if you can.

The best thing to do is to set your maximum comfortable price and your minimum comfortable size then type these values into a search at yachtworld.com to get a huge amount of choices world wide. Don't be tempted into the large boats going for $50k; there's a reason for it, so set a maximum size as well. Something like 37 feet for that price range. Once you get this list of boats you'll be overwhelmed by choices; this is where the next list comes in.

Make a list of things you will be doing with the boat, i.e. racing, weekend cruises, two week cruises, sailing, motoring, whatever. So for instance in Puget Sound you'll probably want to eliminate all the full keel choices. If you're more into sailing than sitting you may want to eliminate cruising keels, wing keels, and skeg hung rudders. This is also a good reason to eliminate boats with lots of topside brightwork.

It takes a while to learn the characteristics of all the boats, so ask questions about specific boats. Do you want quality then go smaller, do want room then go with less quality. Get out and look at some boats to get a feel for what you can live with. For example I really like a wood interior so many of the 'clorox bottle' interiors turn me off.

Basically in your price range and size requirements you'll have to make some compromises, so refrain from 'maybe someday' thinking. If you get a decent boat for a decent price now, you'll be able to sell it later for the same price if you decide you need something else. But if you get into a project boat like I did you'll sink a lot of money into it that can never be recouped, and you may find that the boat doesn't suit you, but you'll be joined at the hip for life.

Eventually you'll narrow down the list to just a half dozen or so. At that point you can start looking for these being sold locally. Don't buy the first one and whatever you do don't fall in love. It's a buyers market and no matter what you decide on eventually one will come up for sale that is in good shape. Wait for that one.

[Dave Mason]

(New member to this site!) This is my first post, so bear with me, but I just had to jump in with this in relation to the Sail/Power thing earlier on. I have owned a Mac 26X Powersailer for 2 years now, and sometimes it p*sses everyone off! Best of all possible worlds for us, though. As soon as sailing ceases to feel right, down goes the 50 horse and we take off at 20 knots to our destination. Not the greatest powerboat, but not a shabby sailor on a broad reach. And the price is right. Check out the unofficial Mac website at macgregor26x.com if you want to see loyalty.

[Ian]

Growing upin England my brother and I messed around in sailboats and he went on to race them for many yrs , I moved to western Canada and found the west coast in all it's splendor . my wife and i have a 30 ft twin deisel power boat for some very good reasons we feel the wind is always wrong in the narrow inside passages the weather is very changable and we find no enjoyment fighting it,I have to be able to operate single handed (the lady can navigate but nothing physical ) you are a long way from help hence the 2 engines. we spend 4 months a year gunkholing around and need the living space room with a view etc.and lastly if we need to get back to town in an emergency we can make 30 knots, works for us but not for everyone i'm sure. cheers Ian North of Cape Caution.

[Phil Sherwood]

Tuning in very late to this thread ...

I have a 1988 Gulf 32 pilothouse, a Bill Garden design, and find it _perfect_ for Pacific NW cruising. Have been all through the San Juan and Gulf Islands and last summer circumnavigated Vancouver Island. The boat's also been to Alaska (with the previous owner).

The boat's fit and finish, while outwardly fine, is not what one would find on a Hallberg Rassy, Valiant, etc. Nevertheless, the boat is ruggedly built and can definitely handle a pounding out there. It also has dual steering, which I find a great convenience when it's nasty out there and I don't feel like dealing with the cold and wet for hours on end.

It's heavy for its size and so likes to have at least 6 or 7 knots of wind; it has a full keel but still points fairly well. Max theoretical hull speed is something like 6.7 knots, I think. In any kind of decent breeze it's not hard to make 5.5 knots or so SOG. I carry a full-batten main, 130% genoa, and cruising genoa (which I also sometimes fly as an asymmetric spinnaker).

I see the pilothouse windows as weakpoints. Before I go subtantially offshore, I will build in some sort of attachment points and make some lexan storm windows (or recommend that the next owner do that if blue-water passages are contemplated).

I'm rather taller than the average person and have found, after two summers of cruising and almost a year of living aboard, that the boat offers sufficient interior space for a couple. For me, four people for more than a weekend would get to be a hassle unless you were making a long passage, when two people would presumably be asleep at any given time.

If you're still in the market in a year or so, when I'm probably going to be moving to another boat, or if you'd like to know more about Gulfs, contact me off list at sherwood@post.harvard.edu. Hope this helps,

Phil
San Juan Island, WA

[strongsail]

Phil, is your Gulf pre- or post-Newport?

The layout of that boat always appealed to me, too - a pilothouse you can see over from the cockpit - but if it's a Newport Gulf, some of them contained really flimsy seacocks. Beige plastic gate valves - if they get fouled, you can break the valve shaft off and can't close it, then it's haulout time.

Just a headsup - I have seen those seacocks on a Gulf 32, but I can't remember what vintage it was.

[Phil Sherwood]

Hmm... I thought Cap Cities was making Newports concurrent with Gulfs (which went out of production around '95 or so) ... I'll have to check up on that.

Regardless, your point is a good one -- I do have the seacocks you mention. I'm hoping I can make it 'til next year's haulout, when I'll replace 'em with robust valves. Another less than impressive aspect of the boat's construction is the wiring: not unsafe, but not particularly robust and in some places embedded in the fiberglass (what's up with that?). Fortunately, the boat's straightforward and hasn't been difficult to rewire where needed.

Phil

[strongsail]

Gulf was building the 32 before Cap Cities bought the company or the design, I'm not sure which. As far as I know, the scantlings (layup schedule, other structural items) stayed the same after Cap Cities/Newport started building the Gulf, but they did shift to some (ahem) less expensive components, like seacocks, electrical panels, etc. I can't remember when they started building the Gulf - I'm guessing late 80's.

I haven't seen any wiring buried in fiberglass - doesn't sound like a particularly good idea - on some Newports, I have seen wiring stuck in gelcoat or paint that was slopped inside the hull in unfinished areas.

If you are going to upgrade wiring, you might want to get the AC and DC electrical sections of the ABYC code - they sell them in pamphlet form - call ABYC at 410-956-1050 or email publications@abycinc.org

[mcisaac]

I have sailed some in the Gulf Islands and lots around Desolation Sound, the Northern Strait of Georgia, and Georgian Bay back in Ontario. Many is the time I was able to pass motoring sailors in my Yamaha 30 only to hear them complain of the "lack of wind" out here. Part of the thrill of sailing for me is to find wind and make my boat sail well in all types of wind (everyone's a sailor with 10 kn of wind).
The Yamaha 30 is very well built, has 2 double births, 2 singles, and 2 fold out pilot berths. I could never use all my storage (although, at one time, I considered converting the cockpit locker into a master's berth to avoidobnoxious paying guests).
Trading in the $40K range, their should be enough left over for conversions to holding tank, propane hot water, dodger, bimini, and even a few light wind sails.
Good luck and happy sailing.

[strongsail]

Phil, we both got it wrong when we referred to the builder of the Gulf as Cap Cities - which, of course, is Capitol Cities, the owner of ABC - we meant Capitol Yachts - ah, we children of the media -

I like Yamahas too, they and Fuji are about the only yacht builders from Japan I can think of - good, solid, simple craft - Yamaha - yachts, grand pianos, motorcycles, skis, stereo equipment - interesting company.

<edit>what if Toyota built sailboats? If Toyota built marine engines, they'd be Yanmars:cool:

[Phil Sherwood]

I'm told that as one gets older, one's memory is the second thing to go. I can't remember what the first is ...

Yes, of course, Capitol Yachts, Harbor City CA. My bad. Check http://www.redact.org/tsingtao/Gulf_32/Modifications/modifications.html for a bit of history. A little more info is at http://webhost.sailnet.com/newport/index.html.

It could just be gelcoat covering the wiring in a few places, but it's in there solidly enough I thought someone might have slapped a quick layer of resin on the wires to keep 'em out of the way. It also tends to occur in places that are hard to get a good look at. Very funky practice either way you slice it.

Not quite the fit and finish of some boats, it's true, but still, a stout boat with many positives.

Phil
San Juan Island WA

[feprice]

Some people hate engines, some people hate not being able to go directly to their destination at a whim. As a member of the former group, and a retiree living on an island in Southeast Alaska, my preference after 30+ years boating is a sailboat with no engine. I have some experience sailing two different boats with dead engines in SE and those who say it can't be done have little patience and/or imagination. I singlehanded a Catalina 30 with a dead engine from Juneau to Thorne Bay (about 180 nm) in February one year. Wasn't fun, but got it done, and actually enjoyed myself part of the time.

Not having to listen to that damned iron slavemaster or to buy fuel other than stove and lamp fuel is a blessing to me. Nevertheless that boating style just dosn't work for most people. So buy the boat you can afford and have fun. You'll soon find out what part of boating gives you the most pleasure, and subsequent boats will more closely reflect your own style. Don't sweat the small stuff, think ahead, buy lots of charts and use them, and have a ball.